Michael Pollan on Food – Free Ebook

please join me in welcoming Michael thank you very much hello William well hello Michael have a seat so okay so yes um Michael has written many good books and the one we’re going to talk about today is is this latest one which is I have to say it’s really superb and it’s about the history of cooking starting off with with cooking with fire which turned apes into human beings so cooking was this brilliant thing and and moving on to cooking with water which was another huge advance and made us healthier happier and more numerous and then the invention of bread he goes on with the discovery of how we can ferment food to make it last longer and be better for us and taste nicer but somewhere along the line it all went horribly wrong and in a way that’s what Michael’s books about this this great two million year period with this tiny little hundred years on the end when we went from good cooking to over cooking over cooking yeah so with that is that basically how you dice it right in glass yeah I mean it’s a it’s a complicated book and there’s a you know I mean I like books that don’t have just one line and one argument and and it has a couple arguments that are layered and one of them is trying to answer this question most of the history as you suggest of cooking has been taking the stuff of nature plants and animals mostly and processing them in some ways that they actually become much more nutritious much more flavorful much easier to digest and it’s this kind of glorious process obviously discovered but through trial and error and one of the questions I had is well then what happened how is it now that processed food is such a problem for people and we’re making foods that we’ve actually done this amazing thing if you think about the history of civilizations or species which is we figured out a way to create a diet that reliably makes people sick and this is quite an achievement for a civilization and so I was looking for that turning point and I decided that you could pin it to the moment where we learned how and this happens in this country by the way to make really white flour the invention of the roller mills where you take the grass seed which is what most most grain is and for the first time we can completely remove the germ and the bran and extract the the endosperm which is the pure starch so basically you’re getting rid of everything that’s good yeah in order to make something which is sort of dead and therefore much easier to transport to store you can put it in a packet and it’s going to last for ages yeah there were industrial reasons to do it without question because that’s the part of flour that doesn’t go bad its shelf stable and you had an industry where you needed a mill in every city in every town because flour had to be fresh because what had the germ has a lot of the germ can go rancid precisely because it’s so healthy it has omega-3 fatty acids which go bad when they’re oxidized and so you you couldn’t centralize this industry but once you have white flour one mill can take care of a whole country and and indeed that led to an enormous consolidation but make no mistake we wanted white flour people wanted it I mean we are we are sugar obsessed and we always have been well I guess we come from I mean originally two million years ago calories were incredibly hard to get and so we we adapted and our whole whole bodies adapted to these creatures that were desperate to go out and get as as calorie dense food as we as we could which is sugar and fat which is sugar and fat and of course now when there’s a huge abundance of all this stuff we still go out and and seek it out and eat as much of it as possible and and and so it was basically this point that you’re saying when everything turned and a couple other things out I mean we wanted white flour because it was satisfying it was sweeter it you know flour turns to starch turns to glucose as soon as you start put it on your tongue with a little saliva it begins turning into sugar and but also whole-grain bread had certain problems before you had really good milling it wore down people’s teeth it was so hard and so you and it became very prestigious as it was in Asia by the way to have white rice the whiter the food the purer it was so we we like this also and the way you got white flour before this amazing invention of the roller mills was you sifted it you you ground it whole on a stone and you sifted it over and over again to get rid of the biggest chunky as bits of bran but that kind of white flour which only the rich could afford for the most part still had lots of good nutrients in it because you’d smush the germ and around and you couldn’t get rid of it but when you could yeah when you could refine it it was this amazing moment of it’s where the industrial logic comes up against the biological logic which is in a way the story of Agriculture to where these two things are constantly fighting and the industrial logic loves refined white flour because you can take the bran and the germ and sell them to somebody else and so this became very important you basically sold people this nutritionally almost worthless white flour then you took the germ and you sold it to the pharmaceutical industry where they created vitamins to sell back to the people who had deficiencies because of white flour it’s a great business model so we’ve got we’ve got this the the terrible moment and I want to ask Michael in a bit what happened after the terrible moment because what we’re seeing it now every day we’re seeing that the results of the terrible moment but I want to go back a little bit in fact I want to go about 1.9 million years to the moment that cooking first happened because this in in Michael’s book is is an incredible story and what he explains is that 1.9 million years ago we were Apes or we were things that um we had hands on the end of our arms and on the end of our feet lived in trees were covered with fur and and so were definitely more like chimps than people and yet these these chimp like creatures which were known as Homo habilis domestic man I suppose somehow learn to cook or learn to control fire and that was the start of absolutely everything yeah this was a this was a really key moment in our evolution the theory and it is a theory called the cooking hypothesis was developed by put forward by a Harvard primatologist an anthropologist named Richard Wrangham who wrote a wonderful book called Catching Fire and he’s trying to answer a riddle that has perplexed anthropologists and archaeologists for a very long time which is at a certain moment we depart from the apes and our brains get much bigger and more complex and at around the same time our digestive apparatus our gut get much smaller and so what caused this because this is a really momentous change and you know some people thought it was meat-eating you know once we started hunting we learn how to hunt we had this new supply of calories but in fact if you’re eating meat raw you don’t get that much nutritional value from it and also your jaw doesn’t usually you need it ah no yes like chimp like jaw and so if you’re not cooking Wrangham discovered you have to chew about how much half yet the Apes are sized spend half their waking hours about 6 hours a day in the act of chewing it’s no wonder they don’t get much done you can’t there’s a lot you can’t do if you’re spending your whole life chewing including hunting and chimps who actually like meat and know how to hunt don’t have enough time to make it an important part of their diet they only have about 18 minutes a day to hunt so when and if you’ve ever hunted you know it takes more time than that so but when we discovered how to use fire to cook meat and other foods amazing things happen because when you cook food it’s much easier to digest you don’t have to use as much metabolic energy to break it down because basically you’re taking some of the digestion and externalizing it it’s happening outside of your body the food is also detoxified in various ways it’s sanitized by the process and in many cases things you can’t eat raw like certain tubers cassava and potato suddenly we can eat because you can cook them so we get this incredible boon of calories that other animals don’t have it gives us an enormous competitive edge and this according to ram’s theory is what allows the human brain to grow and the gut to shrink although the gut now is going the other way but for a long time and shrank and and this step but it has other effects too it has social effects so you’re sitting around it you’re sitting around a fire cooking and and of course what becomes adaptive in an evolutionary sense is a sociability and when it becomes necessary because you know certainly not around the fire you know going to get you meal yes and it takes cooperation of course to cook over a fire the hunter-gatherer could eat on his or her own wherever whenever the mood struck but as soon as you’re cooking it’s cooperative someone’s got to keep the fire going which is a big deal while someone else gathers the food or prepares the food and then you have to delay gratification you have to make this bet that if I wait patiently with these other people no one’s going to steal the food because they’re really hungry so suddenly you need rules and rules surround meat-eating forever I mean they become a very important part of the absolute birthplace of culture of cooperation in language probably and yeah I mean all this follows that’s right apparent apparently they sang at first didn’t have words but sang sort of about that about the food and all sorts of things like that and of course if you’re if you’re no longer foraging for six hours and chewing for six hours you have a bit of time to think and what are you going to think about you’re going to think about you know those bison and and this how we can get this spear and how we can head them off at the pass and all that sort of stuff so you become calculating and your brain grows and you have the calories to to fill it with the glucose it needs to grow so so but for this first moment of the meat falling on the fire and somebody an ape tasting it and that must have happened it must have been an hour we don’t know exactly well if you go to forest fires now you’ll see animals scavenging and what they go for are cooked cooked nuts and you know half toasted rats and experiments have shown that animals who don’t cook like rats and things like that prefer cooked tofu because it’s it’s more calorific it’s easier to digest and they don’t have to spend all the time chewing it they can do rat like cunning things aside from aside from the constant struggle because as Wrangham says it’s a constant struggle as an ape as a chimp to make a living as he puts it you know in order to find enough and he actually followed them around all day and tried to eat what they were foraging for and he said that it was kind of like little goods and and the horrible done leathery things and and and and that’s why they have to chew them because the low-hanging fruits all gone most of what they have is it’s kind of like leaves and bits of you know basically yucky stuff what they don’t feel that they well they after they spend ages chewing it and it doesn’t you know now this raises a question though if you if you eat raw food right I mean we do have raw foodists and Wrangham deals with that too and the fact is that people who eat all raw food diet have trouble getting enough nutrition and half of the women on a raw food diet stop menstruating suggesting they’re not getting quite enough energy and if you know people on a raw food diet you’ll notice something very important about them there’s one appliance they cannot live without and that’s the Vitamix or the blender because otherwise they would be doing all that chewing it’s the only way to process so much vegetable matter so cooking stops you chewing and that’s the first thing it stops in are completely luckily but if you look if you look at our teeth I mean they’re not so good are they compared with the teeth of I mean if you look at an ape at the skull of an ape it’s a magnificent thing with huge strong teeth and they’re kind of really prominent it’s like I missed a teeth here whereas we are teeth are kind of like you know that they’re they’re tiny and shrunken and and and we can just about nip off the end of a Twix or something or a Mars bar but you know trying to trying to chew so in a way so that makes us look like we are that made us look human and as you say it well the fire also allowed us to shed our fur oh there’s a very another way we could when we could stay warm we did not need fur and that gave us a huge advantage because then we could start running for great amounts of time and use animals with fur can only run for short bursts because it’s hot when we were talking about this before you think well what about the cheetah you know that’s got fur not bad at running but the truth is the cheetah can only do it for like two minutes and then it just overheats and it has to it has to rest and what we could do is when you don’t have fur you have a choice right you can be like closed if it’s cold or unclothed you know you can and so therefore your your stamina level can be you can vary how much stamina you’ve got because you don’t need to overheat anymore you can just cover yourself up and walk for miles in the cold when it gets hot you can discard your clothes and still carry on you know hunting those beasts who have to stop every so often if it’s hot so it gives us that slight advantage let’s let’s jump forward okay and we’re not gonna we’re not on verse 18 we’re not getting to the factories yet though because no no no but while you’re talking about teeth earlier and teeth were still very important though until you begin cooking in pots and boiling and this this doesn’t happen till ten thousand years ago so we’re jumping from one point nine million to ten thousand nothing happens in between and but before then you needed teeth to still to to what you were cooking and this was a real problem for very old people or very young people and once you have pots Earth’s or pots a development that doesn’t come up till around the time of the birth of Agriculture and the two things are closely related then you can boil water or other liquids and soften grain which you really need to be able to do if you’re going to have agriculture and you can mix flavors plants and meat together you don’t lose all the nutrients that you lose on a fire you know think about what drips into the fire now you’re collecting that and create this wonderful new thing called sauce and and you can keep old people alive much longer so the human lifespan actually attenuates after you have the ability to boil and that’s that’s the second big step and as you say boiling food in earthenware pots is the beginning of cuisine right because thousands ago yeah because if you think about it food cooked over fire you know there’s wonderful traditions in this country about the joint over the fire or barbecue in America which I write a lot about in the book or Argentine barbecue and but they’re hard to tell apart with your eyes closed I don’t know that you could tell where you were in the world its meat cooked over a fire slow fast whatever but as soon as you’re cooking in pots you you have these aromatic vegetables that become the basis of your cuisine and so if you’re in France you might have onions and carrots and celery and if you’re in Italy you might flop one of those out for tomato or garlic in Spain peppers and so suddenly there’s the the cultural signature of the the flavors that are available they are the plants that grow there easily and you have these flavor principles that become the basis of cuisine and now you can tell where you are around the world with any dish and and so that’s it that’s a big advance too and and the pot starts off with porridge that’s the first thing isn’t it because you’ve got grains and as you say that you can’t really you can put them on a fire but you know that there’s a limit to hosting grain it’s not great but but so you have to have something to put them in and and that that it is a huge thing because then this makes the sowing of grains and the reaping of grains and the storing of stuff you know you’ve suddenly got a store of stuff that lasts for a while which is the very beginning of money I guess it’s um it’s it’s something that you can you can swap for all you know everybody wants grains everybody wants porridge and when all your food is perishable it’s very hard to accumulate wealth and so grains last a little bit you know they’re whole grains they don’t last forever they last years but they last years and so you can you can swap them for almost anything for Spears for instance so so the cooking pot is is the is the start of something huge isn’t it it’s um and it’s very cool very closely connected to agriculture we don’t know what came first whether it was the cook pot or farming but these two things really depend on one another because agriculture depends on growing grain grain is not really edible without the ability to grind it and soften it and add water to it and also you point out that as we’ve gone on through the years we’ve wanted to in some way a face or hide from the stuff were doing and the pot encloses it and it’s it’s it’s something you know who knows what’s in the pot you know when you’ve got a pig on a fire you don’t go who knows what’s there you know because it’s a pig on a fire and there’s something brutal about that that you can’t get away from whereas when it’s in a pot you know we’ve got bits of pig and bits of this and that and it all mushed up and it’s a cuisine and you don’t have to know and and that’s the very start of what we now see in the supermarket when we have a sort of plastic package with a little window and just a color of something and you would and you could easily forget that it’s a piece of an animal a muscle M&M yeah well you want to forget yeah that’s right and and and and and this wanting to forget which is also the start of civilization is kind of tragic you know it’s true though when when you see an entire animal like with its head and stuff and fish fish eyes you know and all that stuff you slightly recoil and because you’re so used to the idea of having it packaged and here in a way its origins hidden away Michael makes the point that across the world the most successful living thing which covers two-thirds of the the earth services grass and and really extracting calories from grass it’s what people do low on the food chain and wouldn’t it be great if we could do that ourselves because this opens up an enormous store of calories an enormous possibility and and that’s what bread is yeah well you know I mean ruminants can take nourishment from grass grasses the great solar collector right you have grasslands that extend over a tremendous amount of the Earth’s surface and they’re collecting solar energy and life in the end is a battle for energy for the energy of the Sun but we can’t digest grass we don’t have a rumen we don’t have that wonderful apparatus a cow has but we have big bigger brains than account and so we kind of figured out how to do it and that really was bread which happens about 6,000 years ago probably in Egypt probably again by accident but if you when I really began to understand this when a scientist named Bruce German at UC Davis said to me we were talking about bread and cheese and things like that and he said well you know you could not survive on a sack of flour and water if I gave you all the flour you wanted he even whole-grain but you could survive on the bread made from same-same ingredients I thought that was kind of amazing why is that and he explained that that the sourdough culture basically flour let’s let’s talk about wheat for sac fly wheat flour is mushed up grassy seeds are amazing things seeds contain everything you need to create a new life right a new planet okay fat carbohydrate protein and all the minerals you need it’s all there but it’s locked up really tight in these long chains or polymers because the plant wants to protect it from animals like us they want to the plant wants to save it for the next generation of plants but the sourdough culture that you use to ferment your your bread all those bacteria and fungi are putting out enzymes that are breaking down those long chains into shorter amino acids and and sugar simpler sugars and they’re also making the all the minerals much more accessible and then when you bake it something even more miraculous happens whereas that porridge in the pot can never get hotter than the boiling point by definition right in inside a loaf of bread a loaf of bread is a pressure cooker and you have these pockets of air and there they fill with steam and steam can get much hotter than boiling water three four hundred degrees so it thoroughly cooks the starch and makes that delicious and digestible and much more nutritious so you see a bread is is an ingenious technology for rendering grass seeds nutritious digestible and delicious and that’s why bread could be essentially the staple of the diet in in in Europe for a thousand years I mean more than half the calories in the diet of your ancestors was was bread but and this is this is where I’ve got to say but but bread was the downfall and and it was making bread better for the person who made the bread that then it was for the person who ate the bread that that was the that was the big problem and it was getting away from the big old stones that grind the seeds to to the steel mills and you write that this really interesting and sequence in which you go to two types of bread making and you go to you go to an artisan baker who is this guy who makes a small number of loaves in the old style and then you go to a Mills as on flour honest any Mills it he did he does everything like like it was done hundreds of years ago but you also go to these enormous factories where they which is what I go to the Wonder Bread factory which you guys know have Wonder Bread it’s um it’s actually well I’ll tell you what happened to wonder bird in a second but this is a bakery a very high-tech bakery where they make a hundred and fifty five thousand loaves a day none ever touched by human hands and it’s an amazing technology in giant sacks of flour but also sacks of dough conditioners of thirty ingredients in this bread and I was there the day they were making their version of whole grain which is basically they’ll take fiber from anything and throw it in bread there’s wood you know there’s cellulose there’s you know anything in Ulan roots um chicory just loaded up and it’s chemically intensive it has and it huge amounts of yeast eleven this bread 10% yeast by volume which is a shocking amount of yeast and it just kind of runs along a track and it’s leavened in in just a couple hours they use so much yeast they get this big coughs eo2 and there you go and then it’s automatically packaged and it goes out into the world and so I spent a day there and then the next day with this Baker Dave Miller and they were I know it’s like perfect man but the interesting thing is you would guess that Dave Miller is the past he makes four hundred loaves a week and he sells them at the farmers market and Wonder Bread is the future yet here we are a year later two years later and Wonder Bread is bankrupt and Dave Miller is doing just fine and I think that that’s really curious and that is curious you are so optimistic and you’re so jar and we but but it read his book honestly he’s very chirpy in person and then you read all this stuff and the thing that got me worried was that Michael was saying all of these factories are designed to make the unhealthy bread and they’re these huge factories in there all over the place and because there’s a sort of a marketing reason to make to make whole-grain bread they don’t sort of really make it properly as you say they just have to use that the the machines that make the bad bread to sort of try and pretend to make the good bread it doesn’t quite work so it needs to be a look at the health claims aren’t they want to put on and then they chuck the vitamins in that they’ve extruded from the grain they’ve got rid of and blah blah and they’ve got this loaf and as you say it’s it’s got gritty bits in it and it’s not real and and all of that and they can just about pack it and store it and market it and put it in warehouses for a while but in order to get the whole system back to what you’d like it to be you’d have to knock down all those factories wouldn’t you because they’re just going to make the the bad good bread and pretend it’s good yeah those people those factories are designed like the mills for white flour we now have a white flour economy and around the edges we’re trying to make some brown bread and because we all understand that whole-grain is very important to our health in a lot of ways people who eat lots of whole-grain have much less chronic disease live longer and for reasons we don’t entirely understand and it isn’t just the nutrients that we’ve recognized in whole-grain there’s a lot of very beneficial things about whole-grain but I say at one point to really make a great whole-grain bread today you you you don’t just need a good sack of flour you need a whole new civilization I mean we heard we’re organized around white flour see and you’re saying you’re not pessimistic but I mean what each of us individually can make a great whole-grain bread and one of one of my quests in this book I mean something that we haven’t been talking about but in each of the sections each of these historical steps I’m actually cooking and learning how to cook and learning how to make either traditional or newer kinds of food and and I worked very hard to make a good loaf of white bread and then work much much harder to make a delicious loaf of whole grain bread and and you realize it’s a culture that’s been lost we’ve all had that experience of really nasty whole-grain bread and you know these virtuous bricks that we got good at in 60s but in fact there is a culture that knows how to make them and and it’s coming back there’s a wonderful revival actually there’s some very good bread outside when you leave here you should try some did anyone get any of the food before you came in really good food um so continuing along this pessimistic line we will I’m going to get back to stuff that’s really wonderful but to move a little bit more along this pessimistic line you say that we are cooking less and less as time goes on and in 1960 I think you say 61 for some reason 1961 Americans cooked an hour a day was it yeah the 65 rates of home cooking have fallen in the United States and from what I can learn it’s true here too they’ve fallen by half since the mid 60s we’re spending 27 minutes a day in America cooking on average and four minutes cleaning up now that makes you wonder doesn’t it about the cooking if you can clean it up in four minutes you’re probably like crumpling a pizza box and scraping some plates but I don’t know that you’re actually getting in there with a pot and though and this is this is concerning okay this I’ll be dark for a moment and I think this is very concerning I think that cooking as we’ve discussed is is central to the to our identity as a species central to our social lives and to give this up is we should think long and hard before we do it and and as you said to me yesterday something happened in the 60s which enabled this process of dropping the cooking to happen and that was the the the tremendous as you say conversation going on between men and women which was who’s going to do the cooking now that we’re both working and and as you say that argument never quite happened because corporations stepped in and said well we’ll do it well it was never concluded that’s right I mean industry has been trying to insinuate itself into our kitchens into our families for a very long time and you go back and you find a hundred years of like knocking on the door with various processed foods because that’s how you make money in the food industry it’s very hard to make money selling simple foods fruits vegetables even flour you make much more money selling things that have been processed the more you process it the more profitable it is so going back to Betty Crocker you know almost a hundred years she is selling various processed she’s kind of this faux housewife she doesn’t actually exist but she’s used to sell all these products to ease the work in the kitchen but there was a lot of resistance to processed food until the 60s and 70s and that is when you have this what william described this really awkward conversation between men and women it became necessary to renegotiate the division of labor in the house because women were working and it simply wasn’t tenable for them also to be doing all the housework but it wasn’t a happy conversation there was an enormous tension around it and and this was a moment that the industry seized as an opportunity and what they started doing was selling their food as a solution to this problem and in America Kentucky Fried Chicken took out these billboards all across the country in the 70s with the giant bucket of fried chicken with two words slogan overhead women’s liberation and so they relieved men and women of having to work this out and and many people left at that solution to the problem but as often happens and it was a solution that it did relieve women of having to cook and Men of having to do anything around the house and except grill and but there was a cost and we’re learning it’s a very high cost because the the decline in home cooking very closely tracks the rise in obesity and type 2 diabetes and the two things are closely connected and in fact I recently interviewed this this french guy jean michel and he was telling me you could actually look at country-by-country that the French cook more than we do and they’re slimmer and healthier and we cook a little bit more than you lot do and were slimmer and healthier than you I mean it doesn’t look like it it I can see there’s a but but I now can’t yet you’re right culture by culture you bet you cook a lot sir and look how Phineas but this guy was saying and what you have to do I went to his accent you saying what you have to do to lose weight is cook more cook more um which which I thought was you know it sounded odd but it’s so true so true and I got back to England and switched on the television and there was this I can’t remember some kind of creature maybe on an ad and the creature was saying don’t cook just eat and and it was then there was a number to call or or something and somehow food would come to your house and you’d pay you have a paypal thing and they all you have to do is just touch a button and food comes and that that’s the idea and the thing is once you’re used to that and I began I was thinking you you say it’s down to 27 minutes in the States the cooking per day well let’s say got to 15 they’ve come a point when you wouldn’t want a kitchen they’d come a point when somebody would you’d go and buy a flat or something and there wouldn’t be a kitchen that here’s the bathroom here’s the room where you here’s the hatch where the fast-food guy comes well you know houses used to have sewing rooms right those are gone and we could you know we could arrive so it says it’s so there is a there is a pathway towards not cooking at all and and a lot of people maybe you I don’t know people in cities there you know in their flats they don’t often use some a lot of people don’t often use you know it they’ll they’ll nip out they’ll have that experience that you see on those those ads where they’re on the train or on the on the bus and they’ve forgotten breakfast and a man rushes up to them and says don’t worry you can have these sweets these breakfast biscuits which it’s the same as cereal like like that’s good you know it’s the same as cereal they’re breakfast biscuits and they’ve got everything in there including milk powder I think to mimic the actual Frosty’s you might have had if you’d had if you’d only had the time to which itself is of course mimicking the oatmeal or right I mean cereal was the first big processed food and that replaced taking grain and boiling with some water which was incredibly Herculean labor apparently and but now we got it down to just pouring a little milk over it and then we’ve gone to the next step and you’re right and we’ll keep going if I’m still in the middle stage Ready Brek right which is which is what is that you pour the anyway they just pour stuff on in it’s just yeah one minute but everything’s a new market I mean if the food industry could figure out a way to reach down your throat and digest your food profitably they would do it so that’s that’s one that’s one future that we might see we might foresee we’re sitting here and thinking can we foresee this yes we can this terrible time when the healthy you know my god I’ve had a bowl of Frosty’s out congratulations son that’s you know brilliant and that’s like the healthiest thing you’d have I actually made it and but there is another possible future which which you which you and you say we can fight back against this and there are pockets of people all over the place apparently doing this the people making the proper bread the people rediscovering how to cook rather than watching it on telly and as you point out again the less you cook the more you watch it on telly with your microwave meal and you and you’re watching people cook because that somewhere deep within you is the species memory of watching people cook and how wonderful that is or your personal memory from your own childhood well your personal any favourite you know watching these these incredible Alchemy’s take place I remember watching first time that my mother showed me how to scramble an egg and you take this kind of disgusting yellow goop and mix it up and then you put it in a pan and it just magically turns into these delicious golden nuggets and we all you know we all have memories like that and and that’s why I think we don’t want to let it go the fact that we obsess about food we have this we go to restaurants where you can watch the food be cooked it’s no longer hidden behind the door we we watch cooking shows on television it just tells me that there’s something we miss about cooking there’s something deep and important that that people will reconnect with are beginning to reconnect with that that’s why I’m optimistic and one of the one of the analogies I often think about is is think what we did to modern birth and the entire earring back in the 50s you know I was born in a hospital and I was bottle-fed and that was the progressive thing that middle-class people did at that point we had professionalized childbirth we had professionalized feeding I mean you know drinking milk from a breast was you know primitive and and we an industry could do better and and the industry had insinuated itself into that process and as a culture we turned back from that we realized that was a mistake and we had the rise of you know the return of breastfeeding we had the return you know midwives and and we D medicalised birth to a certain extent and so that sometimes we try these experiments and one of the reasons we turn back is formula-fed babies didn’t do as well because we weren’t as good as we thought we were at simulating this miracle food we still don’t understand breast milk actually and so that gives me hope that sometimes as a society we try something and we discover it doesn’t work and we turn away from it and that’s I think true of outsourcing our cooking to the extent we are it’s making us sick and fat and and so I’m hoping I’m that that gives me some hope plus the fact that you know people are finding enormous pleasure in all sorts of DIY pursuits well I was I was going to bring up this thing because Michael writes about the the this kind of again and little pockets of artisans and so on and it’s it’s not just baking but it’s also fermentation love of food which is something we’ve lost and fermented food is full of bacteria and we’ve sort of try to rid our food of bacteria and rather than that being a terribly healthy thing to do it’s um it’s making a seal again because we need to have not as you say not just the upper intestinal tract fed but the the lower as well and and that’s what that’s what’s beginning to happen people are beginning to fight back making all sorts of pickled this and that and and kind of we thought raw milk was a horror and that’s because it was a vector for tuberculosis and various other things which were then were a horror and so we we pasteurized milk and and while that stopped us getting TB it also got rid of all sorts of good things in the milk and so you went to look at people who were deeply into fermentation didn’t you yeah this was for me one of the most exciting parts of the the reporting for this book was meeting this this whole group of people I call for Mentos these are people obsessed with fermentation they’re Pickler’s their cheese makers their Brewers and Mead makers and and they were unlike anyone I had met before in that their attitude toward bacteria and precision was was so different than mine I mean I grew up in a household where we were all foot soldiers in the war on bacteria and we you know my mom if a can of vegetables dropped on the floor and got a dent she was sure it had botulism and she throw it out and we couldn’t pork had trichinosis here to cook until it was you know the way the english cooking and we so we you know we fought bacteria and and here were these people all of a sudden who were pacifists in the war on bacteria they love bacteria they considered bacteria their friends and they were very relaxed about sanitation and and we’re making this beautiful bacterial ly laden food which it turns out is very important to our health and of all the problems with the so-called Western diet one of them turns out to be not just all the refined carbohydrates is the fact that it’s so sanitary and that we’re not getting bacteria in our diet which we need and the other thing about it as you alluded to is that in refining the food to be so readily absorbable all these sugars and fats that we do absorb in our small intestine we’re not feeding the fermentation that goes in goes on within our body and our large intestine I don’t know if you realize it but you’re only 10% human you are 90% microbes if you’re counting cells and some of you may be less than 10% you and I don’t know but so we’ve figured out a way to feed the 10% with processed food and that’s what processed food does it feeds the 10% but it robs the 90% of wet so you like to eat it sounds like that like kind of Occupy Wall Street things yeah the 99 except – yeah and so processed food sanitation we have damaged ourselves and the waiter this is the way to fight back to not worry so much about germs in a way yeah I mean it’s a it’s a dangerous public health recommendation to say you shouldn’t wash your produce anymore because you know there’s pesticide residue now and and and a lot of us have weakened immune systems we keep people alive who have very weakened immune systems who are vulnerable to raw milk and things like that so have to be very careful on that recommendation but if it’s coming out of your own garden yeah don’t wash it so much and and it turns out it’s very important to expose our children to bacteria in their play and and it’s really good to have pets and it’s really good for them to play in the dirt and it’s actually very important for pregnant women to be somewhat exposed to animals and bacteria people who grow up on farms you know don’t have allergies or eczema or autoimmune disease at nearly the same rates we do because of this heavily it’s called microbial pressure and we don’t have enough microbial pressure in our lot and this is the reason for things like peanut allergies and so on it may be it may be that basically bacteria in the diet and in the environment train your immune system at certain windows of development and and the immune system needs to learn who is friend and who is foe and the modern industrialized person’s immune system is very confused on this point kind of racist isn’t it’s like it’s like no immigration they’re also their offer yeah but in fact a lot of them are actually friends like the proteins and peanuts suddenly the body attacks it or possibly gluten and this may explain some of the problems people have with gluten and so that this everyday engagement with lots of bacteria in the body and around the body is really what what may we may and I have to say this is provisional this is these are theories that haven’t been completely proven but there’s a lot of epidemiological evidence that that this is an important key to health this exposure to bacteria and there’s a great moment when when you’re deep into bread deep into the culture of bread and then the kind of the kind of microbial activity going on when you say you get a kind of Eureka moment which is kind of like well what we’ve got to work with them yeah not against them they’re not our enemies we will control them that’s the key you’re working with other living species when you bake bread I’m talking about using a sourdough culture not just yeast and when you’re when you’re pickling when you’re making cheese it actually you have to learn a new attitude toward nature and and the model I had for it that was very useful is gardening it’s a lot like gardening because they are – you have these other species that will not do everything you want them to do I don’t talking about the plants you’re trying to grow and I’m talking about the pests who are trying to eat the plants you’re trying to grow and you have to figure out a very flexible way the green thumb is not a power-mad person the green thumb has a somewhat relaxed attitude and understands that about 10% of his or her crop is going to go to the past probably and that you guide these species rather than govern them you can’t really govern them and and so one of the amazing things about cooking that excited me the most about learning it is it engages you with nature you have to learn how to get along with nature because that’s what do you cook you cook these other species and very often you use still other species to do it and that is it can be incredibly frustrating at times but also incredibly rewarding it’s like the history of the British Empire it’s and you start off with a cudgel and then you end up with persuasion and and then slinking away but I feel that that that last bit that covered a lot of history tonight that last bits not quite right um so so I guess right now before before we go to questions suppose the one question I’ve got to ask you is be honest I how optimistic are you that we can turn this around and and stop the the sort of the juggernaut of bad food and unhealthy food culture is it what’s that what’s the chance we can do that well it’s it’s going to be very challenging there is enormous amount of pressure to keep going down this path you know including in our country thirty two billion dollars a year of marketing money and muscle spent to get people to eat this way but I think that the price is becoming more and more clear to more and more people and more governments as well one of the reasons that in New York Mayor Bloomberg has become such a you know fanatic on the subject of soda and and trying to tax it and regulate the size of the of the containers which he’s gotten an awful amount of grief for is that you know he came into office and somebody told him that well New York City has a big public hospital system and it costs you four hundred twenty-five thousand dollars for every new case of type 2 diabetes and he said well how do we reduce type 2 diabetes and they said well reduce soda consumption and that’s what he’s trying to do so you see it’s becoming in the interests of powerful people to attempt to change these norms but it’s not easy to do because the industry is very influential and our desires are for sweet things but stepping back a little further I mean the way I see what’s happening is that for several decades going back really post-world War two we’ve had this great cultural forgetting of what food is about what food can do for us about all it’s it’s almost sacramental meaning in our social life and our engagement with nature and there is a remembering now going on I mean what we think of as the food movement and what may look very trivial as foodie ISM and and you know the fetishization of food that’s going on I see these as kind of pretty harmless excesses in this process of recalling ourselves to everything food is everything food can give us health community this wonderful engagement with nature and so that gives me hope I mean we have a food movement in America that’s rising and getting strong and and and the most the most quickly growing sectors of the food marketplace our local food organic food and and I see it wherever I go I see it here too and you in chefs are playing a very important role in telling people a story about their food and where it comes from and why those stories matter so you know we’re at the beginning of something big I hope I hope I can’t I can’t guarantee that optimism is a matter of temperament as much as evidence very often so sorry I’m losing my thing so anyway I uh many things are happening that fill me with hope but it’s going to be a fight it’s really going to be a fight and we’re up against a powerful powerful adversary um hello um really enjoyed it thank you I’ve read all your books not long ago I was having quite a heated discussion with somebody who works for the Bill Gates Foundation this is another topic and he is adamant that GMO is the only way to go in parts of Africa to avoid starvation etc so while we’re having this heated debate I said well what do you think Michael Pollan things and he said to me that apparently you have seen what’s going on with the Bill Gates Foundation and what they’re trying to do but he wouldn’t come down one way or the other and what you actually thought about the whole GMO question as you would expect from someone who comes at things with a very strong bias toward technological solutions to problems Gates has been very sympathetic to GM and you know there is there is a school of thought that argues that this is how we’re going to solve our problems we’ll come up with seeds that will be so productive and that they will allow us to increase the yield of our agriculture and feed the world I have a problem with that on many different levels first I don’t think GM is fundamentally an evil technology and I don’t see yet lots of evidence it’s dangerous for our health but I nevertheless think it is a there’s very little evidence to suggest it can do what it has been promised to do I’ve been following GM since 1998 or 99 shortly after it was introduced I got a GM crop actually some GM potatoes grew them in my garden to see it was all about and so I’m a I’m a grower and and started looking closely at what this technology offered I think a lot of people would be surprised to learn that GM has not increased yields in any significant way at all only in a couple crops only under very specific circumstances do you get any more food with GM technology we have two GM technologies one is Roundup Ready these are these are crops where you can spray endless amounts of herbicide roundup and it doesn’t kill the crop so it makes weed control easy and then we have BT crops that these are crops engineered to exude a pesticide in every part of the plant a relatively benign pesticide and based on a bacterial toxin what these crops do so far is help the largest industrial farmers get bigger still there are convenience for farmers they don’t increase you but what they meet what it means is if you were growing 500 acres of corn and soybean right now in Iowa you can grow a thousand even if your other field is 50 miles away because you’re not going to have to be there and be alert to an outbreak of European corn borer or or weeds because it’s just convenient so the technology has been developed to make industrial farmers more efficient it offers nothing to consumers and it offers nothing to small holder farmers such as you find in Africa could it conceivably yeah possibly but that’s not what they do that’s not what they’re working on that’s not where the money is to a large extent Monsanto uses Africa as an example to make us eat our GM Peas I mean basically they’re they’re telling us that if we don’t get behind this technology people are going to starve if we saw a big public breeding program to to adapt GM to solve real problems that real people have I think and and then it actually fed people who weren’t eating I think we could I think we’d have to morally get behind it if the cost were not you know too high but there’s nothing there’s no evidence that that’s happening it’s all being sold on a promise and you know you have to it’s a pig in a poke as we say you you you know show me show me what you’ve got that’s actually going to relieve a problem we hear a lot about drought tolerant for crops okay that’s a big focus of research that I think Gates is supporting that sounds really good we’re going to have a lot of drought in the future with climate change but if you look at it if you have a drought-tolerant corn that plant does very poorly in wet years you lose yield in wet years it’s a brittle technology designed for a very specific set of circumstances that you can’t count on because the the point of climate change is going to be variability not continual drought whereas if you have a healthy soil with lots of organic matter those plants withstand drought even better and they do well in a wet year organic agriculture like cornfields outperform conventional ones in drought years because the soil holds so much water there is a very resilient technology that doesn’t have any intellectual property so nobody’s interested in it so I’m very skeptical of GM I don’t I think we make a mistake putting all our eggs in that basket I think that there are other more context contests tonk context based solutions to these problems but I’m not willing to rule it out and I don’t think we should rule it out I just think we should get them to put up or shut up as we say and instead of scaring us into giving them carte blanche and so that’s kind of I mean that’s a long answer to your question but I’m an American living in London for three years and I discovered food Inc a couple years ago which is why I became interested in this whole debate such as normal consumer it’s passionate about it and seeing all the the bills and the things that are happening in America makes me really really frustrated this recent bill that and basically GM companies can’t be held liable for any health ramifications and that sort of thing that that’s happening and Monsanto executives being appointed to FDA and important organizations and it’s frustrating because I feel like I’m helpless and in this fight so I know you say you’re hopeful which is great and I do see all of these things and I myself and try to educate myself about what’s going on what frustrates me is the ignorance and they want to remain ignorant by all of my friends because I feel like there’s this feeling that if they don’t ask the questions and they don’t have to do anything and know that there’s something going wrong so my question to you is from from where you set and knowing so much more about it than the normal person what can i as a normal person do to affect this change and to help this move towards the hopeful and the change towards the better rather than feeding into what industry wants and and what lines our pockets well I think there are two there are two places where we can act I mean one is in our personal lives I don’t minimize the importance of voting with your fork for kinds of food you want to see in the kind of agriculture you want to see and if you look back over the last ten or twenty years consumer is voting with their Forks for organic agriculture for local agriculture has had a profound effect it has created a market that did not exist without any help from governments at all so the consumer side of this movement is not trivial and and it is noticed by the government and it is noticed by the industry and it is I think we have a chance to build an alternative food economy that will be a counterweight and and and we all can contribute to that if we want to but we all but it’s not enough we have to vote with our votes also I mean the fact is you have to be fairly affluent to vote with your Forks because very often these alternative foods cost more and not everybody can afford them so we do have to get involved in things like Agricultural Policy these are things that people who lived in cities just have not paid attention to for many many years with the result that only big farmers or big food processors get involved in the debate over the farm bill which is our our key piece of legislation every five years that basically sets the rules for the food game that everybody’s playing yes Monsanto is working very hard to inoculate itself against any kind of government oversight and they’re slipping bills into the farm bill right now or trying to and it isn’t clear whether it will get through or not but they really want a free pass and they’ve infiltrated the government in lots of ways it’s a very powerful company and if I have one you know essential problem with Monsanto is it’s too much power in too few hands and that to have one company controlling the genetic resources on which all of humanity is dependent is dangerous I mean we should it’s not even clear that we should be able to patent seeds or patent life forms of any kind I think we made an enormous mistake when we went down that path and one of the reasons we did that was because the general counsel at Monsanto named Clarence Tom ended up on the Supreme Court and helped write that decision so monopoly power is definitely something we have to challenge whenever we can and people who live in cities need to pay attention to agricultural policies because they affect you are eaters and eaters should have a should have a voice at in those conversations and they should insist on a voice and their legislators should learn that actually agricultural policy the vote on the farm bill or whatever the the comparable law here is not something you can trade away for your interest in some urban issue we’re all eaters we all care so there’s a lot of politics rising around this and as discouraging as that might be we’re also fighting to get labeling and in California we had a ballot initiative last year that lost by only one or two percentage points to label genetically modified food and this is something this country and 95 other countries already have and we don’t but we’re very close to getting it and and Monsanto and its allies had to spend 44 million dollars to stop it an immense amount of money and and it will pass somewhere soon and this will be a real this will Rock their influence I think in very important ways so get involved I mean you know even from here get on the listservs of various groups that are doing it if you go to my website there’s lots of resources and different different groups who can keep you apprised when there’s a really important vote in Congress and a call to the legislature would be useful hi my name is Madden from Seattle and so you’re about to have this vote you know very soon yeah yeah well first off thank you very much for your writing I very much appreciate your you know your contribution to my changing my view on food I’ve struggled with that you know my relationship to food my whole life but in terms of doing something effective to change what’s going on it seems interesting that you know the grow-your-own movement is really you know taking off in Seattle there’s there’s something called pee patches so they’re here they called allotments I believe and you know you have to get on a waiting list for two years so the demand is there for people to grow their own and people where where space is precious it’s really hard to do that and you know I’ve found through Hugh Fernley wedding stalls got a movement online where you can sign up to be a grower or somebody with land to share and you know I’ve tried to get involved in that and it’s really really hard the demand is very high so I’m just kind of curious about your opinion you know on that if you see that growing if you see that as an effective piece of you know people really reestablishing they’re the right relationship with food or is it more just about really supporting the you know the farmers because you know is it just not practical no I I think I think gardening is a really important part of this movement actually I think that you can grow a significant amount of fresh produce in home gardens and and we did during World War Two in America I think we grew 40 percent of the fresh produce was grown in home gardens during the Victory Garden movement and I’ll bet the numbers were similar here and you know gardening has my first book was about gardening second nature and and I got into all this work through the garden it’s in the garden that I learned about food it’s in the garden that I began to learn about my relationship to other species in the natural world gardening teaches us a lot and if you garden and if you grow food you will cook because what else is going to happen to that zucchini and it creates this wonderful surplus and you will cook and you will give things away and you will trade with your neighbors and you will appreciate the work of good farmers you won’t begrudge them their price because you know how hard it is to do well and and theirs what food is more you know fresh and seasonal than what you can grow in your garden so I think it’s very important I think as a matter as a didactic matter as a teaching matter and actually it’s a source of calories and we talk about you know good fresh organic produce being beyond the reach of many people well this puts it in reach for many people we need more allotments obviously we need to in America we’ve got lawns that we need to rip up I mean lawns need to turn into Gardens we have 25 million acres of lawn I mean that land is available people are still afraid to grow food in their front yard that their neighbors will be upset we have to get over that that’s a cultural norm we have to change but I work for compassionate well farming and were a group of trying to get rid of factory farming mainly because of the cruel way that animals are treated but also I’d be really interested if you could say a little bit about what you think about the huge amount of world’s grain I think well over 1/3 the goes to animal feed as opposed to raising animals on pasture etc so I’d love to hear for you yeah thank you for asking that that’s a really good question you know when we talk about this question of feeding the world and how our you know the gates question and we’re and how we’re gonna have enough calories to feed the world it’s important to understand that we we do have enough calories now we are growing to feed a population of 9 or 12 billion we’re growing 6,000 calories per person per day you only need 2,000 calories so where is it all going well a lot of it is going to feed meat animals I think about 40% of the grain goes to feed animals and that if we reduced our meat consumption there would be plenty of food for everybody so there are other ways to solve this problem than increasing yield and then you add to that what’s the waste figure I mean it’s 30% of you know 30% of the food we grow at least is wasted so the question of meat is very very important and has been since Francis Moore Lappe a road diet for a small planet back in 1971 she was pointing out that people are starving while we’re gorging on meat that has grown with grain that that the world’s poor could be surviving on but not all meat is grown that way and there is there are other meat food chains and one the ones that I think is very encouraging is putting cattle getting cattle off of corn another grain which doesn’t you know they can’t digest anyway but makes them fat quickly and get marbles there me putting them back on grass let the animals eat something that we can’t eat and and they can convert solar energy into protein without competing with human beings for that protein so I think we need to completely rethink our animal agriculture I don’t think the goal should be to eliminate it I think animals have a very important place in in sustainable agriculture as nutrient cyclers and and I would hate to see them disappear I mean these are creatures that we have more or less brought into into existence domesticated animals and they only live to the extent that we eat them and so it’s an argument I mean there are two sides to this argument obviously there are arguments for eliminating animals for from our diet but certainly without question the amount of meat in our diet which is in America and 9 ounces per person per day and it’s an obscene amount of me needs to be reduced for most of human history meat eating going back to our conversation about the about the those early fires was very special it was rare it was wonderful and as a result it was full with filled with rules and ceremonies and rituals and it’s only in our own time that meat has been so common and so cheap that we can eat it without a thought and I think that will that will be a little bubble in history because it just it simply can’t go on if if the Chinese for example start eating meat at the rates we do well we’re just screwed I mean we just I mean it just aren’t the resources to do it but getting cattle off of grain very very important step I’m a sustainable seafood consultant so I work a lot with fish and I just very surprised that there’s been no mention of fish either in early men conversations I am Canadian but I live in London to live in the UK and we’re surrounded by water and there’s a lot of stuff with fish fishers farmers of fish and so I’ve been following your track in London and your advice to the sustainable Restaurant Association to the chefs which didn’t have any mention of fish and then your conversation tonight that didn’t have any mention of fish so I just um my whole world is fashion so I was just I just now that I have you here I’d love to get your opinion on some of the fishing as well as fish farming and I also wanted to say one of the things that we are fighting with you is I project manage catch Fox which is the UK’s first Community Supported fishery so it’s like a veg box but with fish and it’s right out of Brighton it’s really cool Hugh friendly wit install supports it and it’s really about getting people to connect to fish cook to fish cook their fish really pay attention to it and and and it’s really successful we’re midway through our first season and it’s a brilliant success I wanted to share that with you well I’m really glad I’m really glad I didn’t talk about fish because there’s someone in the room and knows much more about it than I do you’re right I haven’t addressed fish very much in my work and and it’s because I don’t know a lot about it and I think it’s incredibly difficult fraught area it isn’t really clear that there are any sustainable fisheries and as much as we hope that there are and we wish that there would be but if you dig down in each one you find actually it’s not as simple as you thought in these cards with the check offs you know sometimes it’s not good enough and we’ve had cases where I’m a great example Walmart decided they wanted to sell sustain they’re the biggest food retailer in America they wanted to sell sustainable fish they went to the Marine Stewardship Council what can we sell we need a white flesh kind of bland fish and they said Alaskan Pollock and they and they dutifully went and started selling Alaskan Pollock and they crashed the population of Alaskan Pollock because they sold so much of it so it’s it’s really a problem and one of the great challenges we face I think as a civilization is developing a truly sustainable aquaculture right now aquaculture by and large is and tell me if I’m wrong is has all sorts of problems because you have to feed the fish thing and usually feed them other fish or fish meal so your your basically you know scooping up the bottom of the fish food chain to make food for this you know for your fish and that’s creating huge problems in the wild not to mention the waste problems and the antibiotics that are used to feed the fish when they’re in confinement it’s a lot like feed lots but it seems to me that that we haven’t been trying to farm fish on a large scale for very long and that it seems to me a problem we might be able to solve and it’s really well worth working on and I’ve seen interesting examples of aquaponics which is a way of growing fish in rotation with plants so that you grow fish in a big tank you could do this with tilapia or golden perch and the dirty water from the fish is pumped up and passed through a bed of gravel in which you’re growing plants food plants and those plants absorb the nitrogen and the other nutrients and the minerals from the fish and clean the water and by the end that water can come back to the fish and that’s kind of a beautiful idea you see this goes back to your point about animals why you need animals and plants in a relationship to have a really sustainable agriculture now you still the issue of what do you feed them but some people are working on raising insects to feed fish they apparently like a lot of them like bugs and and we’re not competing with them for bugs and so soldier fly larvae and things like that but if we put a little bit of ingenuity and a little bit of investment into solving this problem of fish which are so important to our health I mean omega-3 fatty acids are you know a very important nutrient there’s a reason that civilizations grow up where there are fish they to and contribute to to a big and healthy brain it seems to me that that is one of the highest projects that faces us is how to solve this problem so that’s the full extent of my knowledge on the subject and if you want to know more at the end of the talk go back there thank you thanks for your question we can say that actually just food models when purchasing and that perhaps growing news dealing might use fewer pesticides per acre and apple grown down grow so not during organic which is what do you think about well you know when you’re talking about local food there’s an argument used to discredit local food that involves finding some examples where the carbon footprint of the stuff it’s always from new zealand for some reason is is is lower than the local stuff and the i don’t know the apple example the one i always hear is lamb that lamb from new zealand ends up actually having a lower carbon footprint than lamb from great britain and then you look more closely and you realize they’re comparing grass-fed lamb and new zealand with feedlot fed lamb which i didn’t realize you have but feed lots of lamb here and so yes of course because the boat ride is not a giant part I mean actually transporting food by ship is pretty efficient so you can find examples like that and and and we should scrutinize all these things in fact someday we should have a label with the carbon you know the amount of carbon it takes to get every piece of food to our table would be very very interesting and full of interesting anomalies like that but I also would point out that the reasons to buy local food are not simply about energy or carbon that there are many other reasons to do it and I don’t always do it I mean you know there times when I don’t do it but the the argument for local food has as much to do with economics and keeping keeping money circulating in your community keeping farmers in business in your community keeping the agricultural landscape as an agricultural landscape there are many values attached to local food and to reduce it to that single metric is to character sure what the movement is about I think and then there’s the freshness of the food and the fact that food that doesn’t travel as far as generally more nutritious but you can always find exceptions and and they’re people now being paid to generate those exceptions because it’s become a threat to industrial agriculture that more people are choosing local so there are cases where that New Zealand lamb or maybe that New Zealand is a good choice but in the end it depends what values do you want to support are you going to make all your food decisions based on food miles or carbon or do you care more about say the agricultural landscape and preserving it or do you care about freshness and seasonality we there’s no one way to one right way to vote with our food dollars there are many different there you can express your values in many different ways across the spectrum the key is not to find the right answer for everything the key is to be conscious in your decisions to to to to basically realize you now have these wonderful opportunities we didn’t have a few years ago to embody your values whether its environmental whether it’s health pesticide economics with your food choices and so in a way that’s more of a burden because you’ve got to sort through all this information but I see it as a great opportunity to you for let me perfectly into my question which which is I’ve really intrigued as to what you eat and drink in a typical day well I’m an omnivore and you know I kind of eat would you’d expect me to eat not that much meat although I do eat meat I’m very picky about the meat I eat I I only eat sustainable meat I’ve spent too much time on feedlots too you know that the other stuff doesn’t taste very good to me I don’t eat at McDonald’s oh god what I mean I you know I I love to eat I mean I get enormous pleasure from food and from cooking it and from enjoying it and I love being at the table I never miss a meal that this is a very important thing to know about me I’ll never skip a meal I just it’s just there are only so many left in my life and and I’m not going to miss one and even when I’m alone at home and my wife is traveling and my son’s not home I will cook a meal and I will pour a glass of wine and I will set the table because I just I like meals thank you very much thank you all for your great class thank you thank you

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